What’s really holding back EU enlargement? Could new ideas like a “pooled veto” reshape how decisions are made in Europe? […]
What’s really holding back EU enlargement? Could new ideas like a “pooled veto” reshape how decisions are made in Europe? In this episode of the Liberal Europe Podcast, Ricardo Silvestre (Movimento Liberal Social) welcomes back friend of the podcast Emil Kirjas, Vice President at Liberal International and founder of Kirjas Global Ltd. Together, they discuss the latest developments surrounding EU enlargement, unpack the growing sense of enlargement fatigue, and explore innovative and controversial concepts like pooled veto and reversed integration.
This podcast, as well as previous episodes, is available on SoundCloud, Apple Podcast, Stitcher and Spotify.
Emil Kirjas is former State Secretary for Foreign Affairs of North Macedonia, and a former Secretary General of Liberal International. He holds a master’s degree in Geopolitics from King’s College London and a degree in Computer Science engineering. His distinguished career in diplomacy includes serving as State Secretary for Foreign Affairs for North Macedonia and a decade-long tenure as Secretary General of Liberal International, where he led the organization’s global expansion. He currently serves as Vice President of Liberal International and is the founder of Kirjas Global Ltd, a consultancy providing high-level strategy and crisis management to governments and world leaders.
You can follow Emil on Facebook and LinkedIn, and know more about the work he does on his website Kirjas Global.
This podcast is produced by the European Liberal Forum in collaboration with Movimento Liberal Social and Fundacja Liberté!, with the financial support of the European Parliament. Neither the European Parliament nor the European Liberal Forum are responsible for the content or for any use that be made of.
Welcome to the Liberal Europe podcast. I’m your host, Ricardo Silvestre, and thank you so much for listening to today’s episode. And it’s my great delight to bring you back to the programme, Emil Kirjas.
Emil’s a friend of mine, as you will hear, he made sure that I would say that right from the jump, but he’s also one of those people that once you met, you want to know more about his opinions and about his experience. He’s an intellectual, he’s an activist, the founder of Kirjas Global, and the former State Secretary of Foreign Affairs of Macedonia.
This is a conversation that is a spin-off of several talks that we had on my visit to Sarajevo, where Emil was there for an event with our friends from the Boris Divkovic Foundation. And I asked him to come to the podcast to talk about EU enlargement, enlargement fatigue, the concept of pool veto, and reversed integration. And after our main conversation, stay to hear a little more about the kind of work that Emil does. But now, without further ado, it’s my great pleasure to bring you Emil Kirjas.
I’m here with our returning champion, Emil Kirjas. Emil, how are you doing?
Always, always good to be on a talk to you. It’s an inspiration.
So I’m very much looking forward to our discussion. Oh, it’s so good to have you back. And you, sir, I follow you very closely online. You have a lot of pots in the oven, let’s call it that way. And what are the things that catch your interest mostly lately?
Well, it’s a world that is quite challenging out there, if I can use a word that is very light, not to say something that is very, you know, inappropriate. But you can go all inappropriate here.
You know, most of the challenges that are being thrown at us are not of our own making, not for myself, not for the clients that I’m working with. So to juggle in this new dynamic world in the international waters, to try to understand how to reach your objectives in the changing international world where the rules are less and less important or less and less existing. It’s on one hand, you know, quite interesting because you need to unleash your creativity.
But on the other hand, it’s very difficult to project what kind of outcome and results you will have. It is I mean, it is something that I enjoy doing. The more challenging, the more fun it is.
But I’m a person who also likes to see positive outcome of what I do for myself and for my clients in particular. The current state of affairs on the global level doesn’t make it easy. I have you on the podcast because EU enlargement naturally for you, this is very close to your heart.
What are you seeing from your vantage point on this particular need? You know, the EU enlargement is not a novel topic, has been there for quite some time. And actually for the country that I come from, from Macedonia, it turned into an exhausting topic. We particularly in Macedonia have been dealing with this issue for more than 20, now nearly 30 years.
And we have not seen much of a programme insofar that has turned into a very frustrating experience. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has moved Europe into a new dynamic, which basically requires us to think how we can accelerate the process on one hand and on the other hand, ensure that the European Union remains functioning. So we are in a double, so to say, sense of a soul searching, soul searching of how to make sure that the enlargement process is a success and how to make sure that we do not lose the momentum.
Over the last six months since we have had that great meeting in Sarajevo, there has been some move. Finally, I would say finally, after years of ignorance that the world has moved on, the European Commission understood that the current principles enshrined in the enlargement methodology are not really adequate for 2026. What I’m trying to say, the enlargement process itself, where the Copenhagen criteria are the basis and then the commission runs the process of checking whether the countries are in full compliance with the criteria, has been working fantastically 30 years ago.
This was when the EU expanded with the countries from Central Europe, mainly with Malta, with Cyprus, later on Bulgaria and Romania. But it’s not really fit for the world we live in today. The world we live in today is super dynamic.
It moves very fast. We do not have the privilege of investing so much time whether these countries are going to join the EU, but to ensure that they’re as soon as possible in the club and make sure that the EU does not suffer internally from this enlargement process. So we have been thinking on how to make this, how for this to make happen on one hand, together with the colleagues from the Liberals, in particular from the Liberals in Southeast Europe and from the European Liberal Forum.
And we have been following the process. But let’s discuss this in more detail. From one side, what you mentioned was very important, which was the fatigue of the people seeing this as a mirage.
And then all of a sudden there’s this wave of interest and of dynamics and of things moving along. We’re talking about stage ascension models where we can have our brothers and sisters from Western Balkans coming and then we’ll take care of the whole picture later. But do you think that people on that part of Europe could see this as something that they will think, oh, here we go again and well, then we’ll have to wait another 20 years.
And this is this is getting a little too much absurd for us. Or do you think that now there’s a little more. Precisely so, Ricardo, you are hitting the issue in the very core of what it has turned into.
There was this discussion 10, 15 years ago in the European Union about fatigue from enlargement that the European citizens or even the European institutions can be under pressure of the quick and big expansion. But let me put you into perspective and let me talk about myself, because I also have a feeling, you know, if there are feelings on the European Union side, I also have feelings. I was state secretary when we applied for membership in the European Union and got the candidate status in 2005.
That is 21 years ago. And we are still in the same place, still candidate country. So trust me, I’m tired, I’m fatigued, I’m exhausted.
But you know what? I’m not giving up. The same goes for my fellow co-citizens in the region of the Western Balkans and the newly motivated, you know, peoples of Moldova, Ukraine, perhaps also Georgia and Armenia. We have to find a way to accelerate this because it is surreal that the process can last for over 20 years.
We cannot afford then to wait 20 more years until the world becomes so interlinked and digital and for us to discuss further this issue. We need to close the debate whether these countries are going to be inside or outside. And we need to make it in a creative way.
You know, let me give you another example of the fatigueness. April 2018, we were at a meeting of the liberal group in the European Parliament organised exactly on the enlargement. I proposed there the process of gradual, staged, accelerated accession.
It’s even on my Facebook. You know, we don’t even have to invent things nowadays. The digital space reminds us.
I suggested exactly what is being proposed nowadays. Staged integration, get the countries inside and slowly give them the voting rights as they fulfil their duties in line with the standards, meaning close the question of integration, but make sure at the same time the EU institutions function. How do we do that? We make the countries are in, they are inside the room, they participate in the debate, but only and only when they meet certain level of criteria, the certain stage they can get voting rights either in the parliament or in the commission or in the council like that.
We ensure that the processes are not given for granted for those who are not fully compliant. We ensure that the EU remains functional and also we ensure that nobody from outside can question whether the European project has a finish or not, whether EU is capable to integrate its own parts that are surrounded by EU member states and whether we are geopolitically indeed, as the commission promised. You just mentioned that there’s been work done by ELF and also the liberal Southeast European network.
One of them in particular is very, very important, Emil, and I’ve been paying close attention to this, which is the question of the bold veto. And there is some movement to have countries that can join the European Union, but have veto restrictions so that they can’t use veto to blockade everything, even if it is on a temporary basis. How do you see this and how has this been seen locally? Can this be interpreted by countries that are trying to join the EU as too much of a demand because it’s like second class citizens or there is comfort enough so that people can say, all right, let’s get into like you were saying a minute ago, let’s get into the game and then we’ll take care of these details.
Alde has undertaken in its political manifesto since the Congress last year that the veto should be abolished in very many sectors of the European Union. And this is something that I totally agree with. This is a way to move forward.
This is how to unblock the European Union. We do not really need a massive reform of the union and its institution itself. We have to make sure that the veto is not being abused.
At the same time, we discussed with ALF and we understood that for some countries it would be rather impossible to accept that they’re going to lose the total leverage that they have vested into the veto rights. So, you know, this is what the beauty of ALF is. It sits down together to reflect how to provide and offer innovative solutions to the current crisis.
EU has always been a champion of this innovativeness to make sure that on one hand, the sense and the feeling and the necessities of the member states are being fulfilled. And at the same time that EU is made functional and it delivers quickly for the people that they need. People want quick deliveries.
We need to have a quick fix. So we came up to the idea of pooled veto, something new, something novel, something different, which means an individual country cannot hijack the process of decision making in the European Union alone. But if there is a group of countries saying representing 5 percent of the EU member states or 15 percent of the EU population, they can have a collective veto, which means if Portugal, Spain and France, say, and Ireland are very much against something, they can veto it.
But not that Portugal can abuse its veto right in the European Union. It makes the beauty of European integration even even greater because the countries will be even more bound to cooperate with their neighbours or with their other fellow countries to ensure their national interests are protected. But they’re not going to hijack the process.
And then we are going to remove not only the obstacles to the enlargement, we are going to remove the narrative of the populist who say EU is not delivering. We are going to remove the anxiety of the people who are going to say EU does not take decisions quickly, does not resolve problems. We are going to make EU more fit for 2026.
What you are saying is very interesting because we’ve been seeing a lot of conversations about pragmatic federalism. Something else that I’ve been focussing here on the podcast, where you would have these coalitions of countries that want to keep moving forward on stuff without having blockades over and over and over. So what you hear is what we’re saying, if I understood correctly, is that you have the reverse of this, is that to blockade, you have to have enough critical mass, enough votes, enough countries, enough people to then have a democratic, in a way, a democratic system where it is, all right, we’re not comfortable for this and we have this majority of people, this majority of countries not comfortable.
Very much so. Look, we in the European Union, we are diverse. We are quite diverse and we do have the sense of local or so-called national interest.
And sometimes it is indeed difficult for the Finns to understand what is the local or national interest in Spain or in Ireland. It is difficult for the Romanians to understand what is the national interests of the Swedish. It would be difficult for the Austrians to comprehend what is the national interests of the Latvians.
That is perfectly fine. So we need to ensure that these local national interests are not being questioned. We cannot question our identities, diversity and way of thinking.
That’s the paradigm that we have built the European Union on and we have to maintain it. On the same time, having this local interest preventing the common good is actually proving that it’s making the European Union unfit for the realities of the world today. It makes the European Union blocked.
When it is blocked, it cannot progress. When it cannot progress, not only that it’s not competitive on a global level, it cannot deliver to its citizens who are becoming impatient. The bigger the family, the more important that is.
Twenty seven is already big in that sense. With 35, it will be even more obvious, but it will be the same issue. So what we are suggesting is just as countries can move in forward with integration as Benelux has moved in, it has been a champion of showing how regional integration can work.
It has inspired the European Union. The reverse can happen as well, that when those who are feeling that their interests are being questioned, they can team up with others in order to ensure that the processes are not being blocked, but also that their interests are not being completely denied. So we are proposing to foster the cooperation between countries.
You don’t have to agree with everybody on everything, but if you really feel strongly against something, there will be countries probably who would understand and it will make them a sense of this pooled veto to operate for the others to wake up and understand, OK, this is an important issue. Let’s deal with it. Let’s let’s address it.
Let’s not ignore it. Let the Hungarians, for example, let’s use the Hungarian case in this particular way. Let the Hungarians do not feel isolated.
But at the same time, let’s not give the Hungarians the right to feel that they can blackmail all of us and that they can hijack the processes as the urban government has been doing. So we need to find a creative way to move forward. And that’s why we thought this pooled veto is actually a way to go.
It is going to unlock the enlargement because it will take away the power of the governments in Sofia or in Budapest or wherever they might be, Zagreb or even Helsinki to block the process. We’ll complete the project. We will move on.
We will open up and unleash the capacity of the European Union to take decisions fast. It’s a win win process for everyone, I would say. And my last question to you, and then we’ll go a little bit into the work you do.
What is it that you would like to see? Tell us. Tell us a little bit. What would be your hope that exactly at this moment of inflexion, where should we go? Where can we go? Right.
In the last few months, going through different phases of, you know, having a feeling, OK, finally things are going and then being deceived and disappointed, saying, oh, well, here we go. EU style again. What happened was that the European Commission understood that this enlargement process because of the vetoes is not working the way it is.
And then finally, the commission itself, I don’t want to say because it sounds arrogant, I don’t want to say it accepted our proposal or whatever the thing that I was professing over the last eight years. They called it reversed enlargement, which meant let’s get the countries quickly inside, close the question of integrating Europe. I would not even say enlargement.
It’s completing the EU project and then, you know, do it in a creative way, making sure that the countries are inside, integrate them first in the single market. And then we start giving them voting rights. I was actually very much happy to see that the prime minister of Albania, together with the president of Serbia, wrote an appeal together that was published in the German newspapers saying, look, guys, we are happy that we are admitted in the European Union in the single market, at least open up the borders, open up the markets.
We do not really need to have veto right at this stage so that you do not fear that we are going to block the processes. But let’s just close this chapter, whether we are going to be inside the family, inside the room, or we are going to be left out outside while the storm is approaching. And I thought, OK, finally, there we go.
We are moving. There is an understanding that the things will progress. And then there was a meeting in Brussels a few weeks ago of the right hand person in Ursula von der Leyen’s cabinet with the EU ambassadors and bang, cold shower again from the EU capital saying, no, no, no, no, no, we are not changing anything.
And it just, you know, we mentioned the fatigue. I would say it’s frustrating to see that the EU capitals are behaving worse than the MAGA people in the United States. We are horrified and we criticise MAGA because they want to make America great again or they want to bring America of the past.
But then Brussels or the European countries behave exactly or even worse way. They are saying, let’s not change anything that the way it was in 1995. It was brilliant world out there.
Let’s close our eyes, our ears. Let’s ignore that the world has moved on and let’s keep the things the way they are. Well, you can, but then you will suffer the consequences and the consequences are going to be horrible.
Instead of being creative and adapting, we are too much reactive. We had to react as EU when the COVID crisis hit and we showed that we delivered. But it had to be a crisis.
We had to adapt when the financial crisis hit. It had to be a crisis, but we adapted. Right.
We had to face crisis with Ukraine in terms of pooling our resources. And we adapted. Why do we have to wait for another crisis in order to adapt for the purposes of completing the EU project? Let’s not wait for the crisis to understand and acknowledge that the world has moved on.
I’m hopeful that this momentum of the proposals of reinvigorating the enlargement process will pick up. I’m hopeful that some leaders in the European Union will be more vocal and say, guys, the world has moved on. Let’s adapt.
Let’s reform what we need to reform because it is in our own interest. We cannot be permanently the followers of the trends, but we need to be the trendsetters. That is amazing.
No, you have to be the trendsetter in the world. Then we’re going to be the real superpower that we wanted to be.
That’s why I have you on the podcast, so that you can give us those pearls of wisdom.
But it is true. This maddening idea, and it happened on March 2026, where, again, it was this idea that, well, we need to have full adherence to standards. And then the whole thing just stops again and all that momentum gets lost.
But let’s put your hand in the sand and saying, oh, I don’t want to admit that the move has moved on until until somebody really starts pulling my head out of the sand. Acknowledgement of the reality is a very important thing for any person in the world, but it should be also important for the European Union, too. Absolutely.
All right. And as last minutes to our listeners that they don’t know Emil that well or follow your work, we were having a cevapi in Sarajevo and it was such an amazing, such an amazing dinner because I was able to pick your mind in many things without getting too much into detail. You have a lot of influence.
Give us just a little bit of a glimpse again so that you can enchant our listeners like you did to me by just telling me how you live, how you see yourself in this world.
Well, I love to see myself more as a connector and as a person who actually helps that, you know, the world functions in a more coherent, more just way, more open way where the people benefit from the from the liberties and, you know, the quality of life that we have in Europe. I am a European.
I might have been born in a country that is not still a member of the club, but I really do not find myself different from particularly the people in the Mediterranean, which with whom I share the cultural identity or even in general with the Europeans because of our mindset and the way we look at the world. I do work a lot with with with clients, governments and in general, you know, political leaders from outside Europe. And you know what? Europe is still seen as a benchmark of countries that are solid, that are open, that are free, that provide social care and assistance to the people.
But a lot more and more people are seeing Europe as part of the world that has completely lost its capacity to lead or project that power so that that model is a successful. On one hand, I want to make sure that, you know, this European way of doing things is not being sold as a superior thing, but as an inspiration for the others. For that to happen, two things are important.
First of all, the European arrogance has to disappear. We have to stop telling the people around the world how they have to do the things. We have to show them how we do the things in an efficient way.
So my job, on one hand, is to showcase how, you know, the liberal democracy in general works. Freedom, democracy, respect of human rights, caring for those who need support in the society, on one hand, and on the other hand, adherence to the same standards for everybody. We should not propel the gospel of, you know, international law and standards to the others while we ourselves breach it.
We need to listen to the others. We need to understand. We need to comprehend the realities.
And we need to offer our helping hand for the others to implement a similar model of liberal democracy like we have in the world. I think, you know, even when Canada said, you know, when was it, like two years ago or a year something ago when Trump acceded to power that even Canada is considering joining the European Union, it was not because Canada wants geographically to move itself, you know, and cross the Atlantic. They understand that they have a liberal democratic model of governance and the setup of the country that they want to be associated with.
I was just in Korea and I understand that they want to associate with that model of liberal democracy. We need to maintain our model. We need to inspire the others.
I know that a lot of Africans see us in Europe or see that liberal democratic model as a reference point and we need to be at disposal to help them to get there, but not only by telling them what to do, but by showing that our liberal democratic model operates. So that’s why I’m working both with clients outside of Europe to give them the helping hand to cross the river, so to say. But also I’m working here in Europe with partners not only in Southeast Europe, but across Europe to make sure that the EU is reformed so that it can still be that positive reference on a global level.
To our listeners, I did my best to try to have Emil take over the European Union. I cajoled him. I tried to.
I know, but he’s more successful in the stuff he does outside. So, all right. As we say goodbye for now, tell us where people can find you and your work online.
Yeah, I can be found on my name, Emil Kyrgios, on my LinkedIn profile, but also on my Facebook page from the company that I have, which is Kirjas Global.
OK, I’m going to put all the links on the podcast show notes. The man, the legend, it’s Emil Kirjas.
I’m very happy to say that he’s a friend of mine. Exactly, a friend. That was the most important thing.
It should be at the beginning so people understand that, you know, you’re talking to somebody who you can relate to. Because I do everything you tell me to, I’m going to put a previous note on the podcast saying that you are my friend. So in the initial recording.
All right, thank you so much for coming to the podcast. Thank you so much, Ricardo.
It was a pleasure to be on your podcast again. This is all for now. I’ll be back soon with more podcasts.